…they should also know that putting together a record-breaking event like live8 *also* involves an enormous amount of effort – and care. I don’t get why they would belittle all that effort and care so flippantly.

He is suggesting that this is a fallacious argument and that one might in fact consider the inverse relationship: the more effort goes into something the more it is worth criticizing.

When you make your syllogism:

a) iraq war took a lot of effort. b) Live8 took a lot of effort. Therefore, c) live8 and iraq war are equivalent in some way that bears upon the present conversation.

You intentionally ignore the important nature of the comparison being made. How are the equivalent? Solely in terms of effort, not in any other way. Why is effort important? Because you made the argument that effort was important. Tim was making a counterfactual argument and one that I happen to agree with. Now you are attempting to discredit this argument by making it seem like he is positing an equivalence between Live8 and the Iraq war. It is clear that he is not doing this.

You can argue however you like, but nobody is going to take you seriously if you deliberately misrepresent the arguments of others. Your other misrepresentations seem equally disingenuous.

Is that a wrong reading? Seems pretty clear to me. Whats more, Burke did this intentionally to make his (rhetorical, unstated) point that he couldnt see anything much worthwhile in live8 the way I could. The reduction actually is his – In my own post I never said that the reason for valuing live8 was ONLY the effort that went into it. But he read my post as if that was what I had said, reductively, in order to make his rhetorical point.

Yes, I wish you guys would read these posts more carefully.

All I was pointing out therefore, is that the analogy he generates with (a) and (b) of his syllogism, is a reductive and absurd one. Live8 is not Iraq, on any of the levels of valuation that this series of posts was concerned with: its ethical consequences, its moral consequences, its practical consequences, as an event.

You guys seem to think it was a collosal waste of time. I disagreed on the points which you brought up. I’m not sure why the iraq war came into this, except via Burke’s easy analogy. No, effort alone doesnt make something worthwhile. That was never my point, so I’m not sure why he made it his. If he wants to argue that live8 was ‘wrongheaded’ – why not say why he thinks that, instead of the easy and absurd comparison to the iraq war? With all its baggage?

I know you guys think live8 was wrongheaded. But so far virtually all the reasons you give for thinking so are either factually wrong (“live8 was done to tell people Africa is poor”) or ridiculously ungenerous (“if you’re not in the field like us you’re worth shit”). And so on.

He doesn’t compare Live8 to the invasion of Iraq. Just because the two are mentioned doesn’t make it a comparison. Please read more carefully before responding.

Given that its a good cause, I myself am inclined to grant people a lot of leeway in how they want to go about contributing, whether its merely raising attention, or merely giving money, or contributing in a more personal and dedicated way. I find it unproductive in the extreme to berate such good causes merely because they ‘werent good enough’ in some absolute or extreme sense.

Like I say; for the next comment I expect Bob Geldoff to be compared to the Nazis, and then we will have seen everything.

To some extent, investing lots of effort and care on a wrong-headed approach inclines me less favorably to it, because the waste of goodwill and labor seems even more lamentable.

It is also inaccurate and unfair to call some of the folks I’ve quoted above “armchair critics” if you look at their bios you will see that at least two of them have long histories of working in Africa and on African issues.

Another common misconception from archair-cynics, is that this was somehow to be a celebration of Africa and things african. No, it was not. But because of this impression you archair cynics bemoan the lack of ‘Africans represented’ at the event, and then bemoan the usual suspect which is of course white megalomania. No, from the start that was not the intention of live8. Get it right or stop carping. It wasnt FOR africans or for black americans as such. The audience was an ‘audience of 8′, as one of the organizers put it. The entire focus was on the 8 members meeting in scotland. Pressure on them, pressure on them. Debt forgiveness, debt forgiveness. That was it. Make a lot of noise to put pressure on them. Not to celebrate anything.

Lastly. Punk did not die at live aid. Green Day playing in Berlin for Live8 proves that. Punk turned into pop-metal on the one hand and into grunge on the other. It did so of its own accord, not because of live aid.

What DID change at live8, none of you archair cynics have grasped. What changed was the the left no longer expresses itself through popular music, the way it used to, the way it could count on popular music to be an outlet for so many decades. Live8 proved that that era is over for the left. Because the message at live8 – from Geldoff hugging bill gates to the nearly total lack of berating of traditional bad guys – was that anti-establishment messages via music concerts will no longer fly in this day and age. And thats a shocking change, tho it reflects the ongoing change in our political culture at large. Its shocking to see even such a reliable anti-establishment venue as the free concert bow to its pressure. Or to see Geldoff *praise* bush and blair for their generosity with African aid/debt forgiveness. U2′s Bono was asked about this. He simply said, “when they’re wrong, we have to say they’re wrong, when they’re right, we have to say they’re right.” Such is the *pragmatism* with which this free ‘liberal’ concert was organized and with which it was executed by its organizers. THATS something to notice. End of an era. And maybe its not such a bad thing for the left to keep up with changing times and be pragmatic if it will bring results. This wasnt ‘for the people’ – it targeted the corridors of power, as a new york times article also noted. Things were different at live8, but not for the reasons you cynics bemoan. Larger changes are afoot. But if you’ve got your traditional leftist goggles on, you’re not going to see them and wont be a part of them.

And – seeing Pink Floyd unite after 24 years, made any other silliness about the event more than worth it.