This is a rough transcript from a recent appearance by Roger Normand (Executive Director, CESR) on “The O’Reilly Factor”, a Fox talk show with a very large conservative audience. Although his interruptions made it difficult to state a complete position, note towards the end that Mr. O’Reilly states, “I’m with you on the settlements, I think the settlements are counterproductive, destructive, and they should dismantle the settlements. I’m with you there.”
This is an extraordinary statement by one of America’s most popular conservative commentators. It goes well beyond the Clinton proposals at Taba (which called for Israeli retention of major settlement blocks with 80% of the settlers), beyond even what Arafat and the PA have proposed. Please feel free to circulate.
SECTION: News; International
LENGTH: 1752 words
HEADLINE: Impact Interview With Roger Normand
GUESTS: Roger Normand
BYLINE: Bill O’Reilly
BODY: THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL O’REILLY, FOX HOST: Hi, I’m Bill O’Reilly, reporting from Houston tonight. Thank you for watching us.
Secretary of State Colin Powell is in the Middle East. An atrocity greets him. And this is the subject of this evening’s Talking Points memo. If there was ever a question about Palestinians wanting peace, there is not any longer. The suicide bombing today shows the world that terrorists in Palestine want a wider war. They do not want a peace process.
Mr. Powell is trying to convince Ariel Sharon to withdraw his troops from Palestinian territory. You would think all the Palestinians would be rooting for Mr. Powell to succeed and trying to help him.
But no. Just as Powell’s about to land in Israel, a suicide bomber commits murder.
Now, only a fanatic would deny that this kind of murder in the face of a peace mission is an act of war. Talking Points believes many in Palestine want an all-out war between the Arab world and America and Israel. They want they want massive violence, and a showdown that would cost thousands of lives.
And these people are out of control. Arafat can’t stop them, and not one Arab leader condemned the suicide bombing today, not one.
So what we have here is an attempt by terrorists in the Middle East to ignite a world war pitting Muslims against Christians and Jews. That’s how bad the situation is.
President Bush also has an extreme problem with Saudi Arabia. America gets 8 percent of its oil from that country, and that country is now raising millions of dollars to support the families of the suicide bombers. That’s directly supporting terrorism, the same thing that Taliban did.
So what does Mr. Bush do? We’ll have a report on that upcoming.
All Americans should understand the gravity of this situation. Secretary Powell has to exert pressure on both Israel and on Arafat to come to some kind of agreement on peace talks. If the secretary cannot do that, a wider war is almost a certainty.
And that’s the memo.
Now for the “Top Story” tonight. Some in Europe are accusing Israeli Prime Minister Sharon of being a war criminal like Milosevic.
Joining us now from New York is Roger Normand, a human rights lawyer and the executive director of the Center for Economic and Social Rights, a liberal group.
Now, Mr. Normand, I understand that Ariel Sharon’s a hawk, he’s a hard liner, he’s done some bad things in his past. Ah — we — that’s a matter of record.
But when you have wave and wave of suicide bomber, particularly in a peace mission, you know, Colin Powell is trying to get the Israelis to withdraw, he’s going to stop the violence. And then you (UNINTELLIGIBLE) somebody blowing herself up, killing six, wounding 90.
Come on. You got to be reasonable here, do you not?
ROGER NORMAND, CENTER FOR ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL RIGHTS: You do have to be reasonable. And what you have to do is hold all sides to the same standard, and that’s a human rights standard. And so of course suicide bombings are an atrocity. That’s a form of war crime, because war crime has been defined as a systematic attack against civilians.
O’REILLY: Right.
NORMAND: But what Israel is currently doing in the occupied territories are also war crimes. Those are…
O’REILLY: All right, let’s, let’s…
NORMAND: … systematic attacks (UNINTELLIGIBLE)…
O’REILLY: … let wowowowowo. Let’s — we’ll get to Israel…
NORMAND: … against civilians.
O’REILLY: … we’ll get to Israel in a moment. But let’s get very specific about this. You’ve got the secretary of state going over to Israel to try to get Ariel Sharon to pull his military out of there. And then moments before he lands, there’s a bomb, there’s murder. What do you say about that, Mr. Normand, what do you say about that?
NORMAND: Well, about that is, it’s clearly aimed at derailing the mission.
O’REILLY: OK, very good…
NORMAND: No question about it.
O’REILLY: … you’re honest. You’re honest.
NORMAND: Of course.
O’REILLY: Clearly aimed at derailing the mission.
NORMAND: But the question is, who are the people…
O’REILLY: OK? Why — now, why — wowowowo…
NORMAND: … sending these…
O’REILLY: … waywaywayway.
NORMAND: … suicide bombers? They are people, these groups, are not interested in peace…
O’REILLY: That’s right.
NORMAND: … but again, in the same way that Sharon and Israel is not interested in peace…
O’REILLY: But I don’t want to talk…
NORMAND: … (UNINTELLIGIBLE)…
O’REILLY: … about Israel right now. I want to talk about the Palestinian power structure, all right, which does not want peace. Now, would you agree with that?
NORMAND: I would not agree with that.
O’REILLY: You wouldn’t.
NORMAND: Because we now need to define Palestinian power structure…
O’REILLY: Arafat and his cronies.
NORMAND: … the fact is, Arafat, Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, during the years of the Oslo peace process when there was some hope for a settlement, even though I think the whole process was misguided because Israel kept expanding the settlements, but during that period, Arafat was actually quite effective in cracking down on these groups, Hamas and Jihad.
And it’s only after Sharon came in and basically blew up the peace process — and, I would say more, attacked the infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority, made it even impossible for the Palestinian Authority to exercise any control if they wanted to — I mean, it’s a little ludicrous to ask President Arafat, confined in his little compound, where he has to ask the Israelis for a cup of coffee, to be effective in trying to undermine some groups who actually are…
O’REILLY: All right. So you would admit, then…
NORMAND: … hostile to Arafat. These groups are…
O’REILLY: … you’re admitting…
NORMAND: … hostile to Arafat (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O’REILLY: You are admitting that the terrorists are basically controlling the agenda on the Palestinian side right now.
NORMAND: I would say that some of these groups are controlling the agenda because the Israeli government has created a situation that allows…
O’REILLY: All right. You’re making excuses…
NORMAND: … them to control the agenda.
O’REILLY: … for them.
NORMAND: It’s not excuses, you have to deal with…
O’REILLY: It is! You’re making…
NORMAND: … historical reality.
O’REILLY: … excuses for them. All right, now…
NORMAND: If you don’t understand the facts on the ground…
O’REILLY: … I’m going to put you…
NORMAND: … we can’t come to a just peace (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O’REILLY: You can understand all day long. Terrorism is terrorism, all right?
NORMAND: That’s true.
O’REILLY: Excuses walk on this program.
NORMAND: No…
O’REILLY: Now, I’m going to appoint you as prime minister of Israel. You’re in charge. OK? You’re Ariel Sharon. You see, and I’m with you on the settlements, I think the settlements are counterproductive, destructive, and they should dismantle the settlements. I’m with you there.
You’re Ariel Sharon. Your people are — your civilians are being targeted, they’re getting blown up. What do you do?
NORMAND: Well, I’m Ariel Sharon, in fact, you could be Ariel Sharon too, because if you took the position you just said, which I agree with, if I’m Ariel Sharon, I say as prime minister of Israel, I accept the parameters of peace, land for peace, that Arafat has offered and that the Saudi plan offers.
And if you do that, and if you agree to dismantle the settlements, like you just suggested, you would have an entirely different political situation. You would have — you would see these kind of suicide bombings brought to a minimum, and actually you’d be able to halt them, as they were…
O’REILLY: All right. But as you know…
NORMAND: … halted for many, many years.
O’REILLY: … as you know…
NORMAND: End the occupation. That’s the way…
O’REILLY: … as you know…
NORMAND: … towards peace, ending the occupation.
O’REILLY: As you know…
NORMAND: That’s the way to end atrocities on both sides.
O’REILLY: … in the last days of Clinton — Mr. Normand, you’re going to have to stop when I start, OK?
NORMAND: I’m sorry.
O’REILLY: As you know, in the last days of the Clinton administration, the land for peace was offered by Barak. OK? And Yasser Arafat walked away, stunning President Clinton, all of our diplomats, and most of the world, stunning them. He walked away.
So don’t the Palestinians have culpability here as well? To call Ariel Sharon a war criminal is ridiculous. He may be overdoing it. President Bush thinks he’s overdoing it, I’m for pulling Israelis back right now as well. But come on! Barak gave the PLO a good deal. They walked away. And right now they are not in control of their own people.
NORMAND: You’re raising two separate questions. The first is, is Ariel Sharon a war criminal? And I think the answer, you know, as an international lawyer, is yes, because he and forces under his command are committing war crimes now and have in the past.
O’REILLY: Well, you’d have to document that.
NORMAND: The issue of Barak is a separate issue, and that is, you know, what Barak was willing to offer is obviously far better than what Sharon is willing to offer. But I think an Israeli human rights group said it best, which is, the Camp David accords, which actually were improved and made much better under Taba, which was the Clinton proposals, but even so, it was still a prison, because whether the Palestinians get 90 or 95 percent of the territory, the real issue is what territory Israel retains control over. It’s like a prison. The prison guards might control…
O’REILLY: All right. But all of these…
NORMAND: … only 5 percent of the prison, the prisoners…
O’REILLY: … things — I understand, Mr. Normand…
NORMAND: … are in 95 percent, but if they’re encircled by Israeli tanks, you can’t have a viable…
O’REILLY: Fine. But all of these things…
NORMAND: … state. You need a state.
O’REILLY: … can be negotiated. They — it is possible to negotiate them, but it is impossible as long as Palestinians target civilians, which they are doing, and that is the real war crime.
Mr. Normand, we appreciate your time very much tonight.
NORMAND: Thank you.
O’REILLY: Next, as we continue from Houston, a huge problem, what to do with Saudi Arabia now that that country is helping terrorists? We’ll be right back with that report.
LOAD-DATE: April 13, 2002
